add Milestone 3 for daos: daos based on ink

[wetalice]

Grant level

• Level 1: Up to $10,000, 2 approvals
• Level 2: Up to $30,000, 3 approvals
• Level 3: Unlimited, 5 approvals (for >$100k: Web3 Foundation Council approval)

Application Checklist

• The application template has been copied and aptly renamed (daos.md).
• I have read the application guidelines.
• Payment details have been provided (bank details via email or Polkadot (USDC & USDT) or BTC address in the application).
• The software delivered for this grant will be released under an open-source license specified in the application.
• The initial PR contains only one commit (squash and force-push if needed).
• The grant will only be announced once the first milestone has been accepted (see the announcement guidelines).
• I prefer the discussion of this application to take place in a private Element/Matrix channel. My username is: @_______:matrix.org (change the homeserver if you use a different one)

[github-actions]

CLA Assistant Lite bot All contributors have signed the CLA ✍️ ✅

[wetalice]

Project Abstract

Please replace these instructions with a brief description of your project summarising key points (1-2 paragraphs).
If your application is a follow-up to a previous grant, please mention which one in the first line of the abstract and include a link to previous pull requests if applicable.

Grant level

• Level 1: Up to $10,000, 2 approvals
• Level 2: Up to $30,000, 3 approvals
• Level 3: Unlimited, 5 approvals (for >$100k: Web3 Foundation Council approval)

Application Checklist

• The application template has been copied and aptly renamed (daos.md).
• I have read the application guidelines.
• Payment details have been provided (bank details via email or Polkadot (USDC & USDT) or BTC address in the application).
• The software delivered for this grant will be released under an open-source license specified in the application.
• The initial PR contains only one commit (squash and force-push if needed).
• The grant will only be announced once the first milestone has been accepted (see the announcement guidelines).
• I prefer the discussion of this application to take place in a private Element/Matrix channel. My username is: @_______:matrix.org (change the homeserver if you use a different one)

This is an excellent framework that has been used in projects in the past. Currently only supported in Pallet.
If there is such a framework and template in ink, it will bring great convenience to developers of smart contracts. We believe that any project party needs to have such a framework, which has the ability to quickly create and manage various DAOs. This framework needs to move away from the past pallet form and exist in the form of smart contracts, which will greatly simplify development and deployment costs. In the development of this milestone, we will make a major technical upgrade to give it more powerful, richer functions and more abstract capabilities. We hope to achieve this: by deploying this smart contract, you can manage DAO and create your various DAO templates.

[wetalice]

I have read and hereby sign the Contributor License Agreement.

[semuelle]

Thanks for the submission, @wetalice. I have two questions:

• Could you elaborate a bit more how daos has been used since the grant was concluded and what made you decide to implement it in ink!?
• Are any other teams using daos than the two you mentioned in the application? There hasn't been much activity on the daos repo since the last milestone almost a year ago, so it gives the impression that there isn't much activity around it.

[wetalice]

Thanks for the submission, @wetalice. I have two questions:

• Could you elaborate a bit more how daos has been used since the grant was concluded and what made you decide to implement it in ink!?
• Are any other teams using daos than the two you mentioned in the application? There hasn't been much activity on the daos repo since the last milestone almost a year ago, so it gives the impression that there isn't much activity around it.

Great question. Thank you very much for your support and attention to DAOS. Up to now, DAOS has been applied to two projects, both of which share a common characteristic: in numerous small groups, members need to collectively vote on democratic decisions within the organization. For example, decisions on the use and management of ICO funds for each project, as well as personnel changes and fund management within each social room. These decisions, if made using Substrate's democracy and collective, would waste public resources and might allow individuals unrelated to the group to vote.

DAOS is designed to address these issues. DAOS is unique because it serves the decision-making needs of small groups. The prerequisite for a third-party project to meet this condition is to have many small groups with common characteristics that need to decide their internal matters without external interference. Currently, there are not many parallel chain teams with these characteristics, but as their business functions continue to grow, we believe they will divide the on-chain users into many small groups for various business reasons. At that point, DAOS will be very helpful to them.

As the development of Ink continues to improve, frameworks like DAOS, which do not depend on external pallets but have their own comprehensive functions, should exist in the form of smart contracts. Or, in other words, this kind of option should be provided to community developers. Regardless of development and deployment, smart contracts are a convenient and flexible option that can enable more teams to use DAOS, especially those small teams that focus solely on smart contracts. We hope that through this friendly upgrade, more teams will see the benefits of using DAOS.

[wetalice]

Thanks for the submission, @wetalice. I have two questions:

• Could you elaborate a bit more how daos has been used since the grant was concluded and what made you decide to implement it in ink!?
• Are any other teams using daos than the two you mentioned in the application? There hasn't been much activity on the daos repo since the last milestone almost a year ago, so it gives the impression that there isn't much activity around it.

Great question. Thank you very much for your support and attention to DAOS. Up to now, DAOS has been applied to two projects, both of which share a common characteristic: in numerous small groups, members need to collectively vote on democratic decisions within the organization. For example, decisions on the use and management of ICO funds for each project, as well as personnel changes and fund management within each social room. These decisions, if made using Substrate's democracy and collective, would waste public resources and might allow individuals unrelated to the group to vote.

DAOS is designed to address these issues. DAOS is unique because it serves the decision-making needs of small groups. The prerequisite for a third-party project to meet this condition is to have many small groups with common characteristics that need to decide their internal matters without external interference. Currently, there are not many parallel chain teams with these characteristics, but as their business functions continue to grow, we believe they will divide the on-chain users into many small groups for various business reasons. At that point, DAOS will be very helpful to them.

As the development of Ink continues to improve, frameworks like DAOS, which do not depend on external pallets but have their own comprehensive functions, should exist in the form of smart contracts. Or, in other words, this kind of option should be provided to community developers. Regardless of development and deployment, smart contracts are a convenient and flexible option that can enable more teams to use DAOS, especially those small teams that focus solely on smart contracts. We hope that through this friendly upgrade, more teams will see the benefits of using DAOS.

The existence of DAOS in the form of a pallet may require third-party developers to do more work due to the active development and frequent updates of Substrate. Especially in the early stages when the user base is not yet substantial, developers may be reluctant to add several pallets to their projects, particularly for decentralized teams that may not have sufficient resources. Their primary focus is on developing their business functionality rather than dealing with the decision-making of small groups. DAOS is designed to serve projects with a certain scale of users.

[wetalice]

Thanks for the submission, @wetalice. I have two questions:

• Could you elaborate a bit more how daos has been used since the grant was concluded and what made you decide to implement it in ink!?
• Are any other teams using daos than the two you mentioned in the application? There hasn't been much activity on the daos repo since the last milestone almost a year ago, so it gives the impression that there isn't much activity around it.

Great question. Thank you very much for your support and attention to DAOS. Up to now, DAOS has been applied to two projects, both of which share a common characteristic: in numerous small groups, members need to collectively vote on democratic decisions within the organization. For example, decisions on the use and management of ICO funds for each project, as well as personnel changes and fund management within each social room. These decisions, if made using Substrate's democracy and collective, would waste public resources and might allow individuals unrelated to the group to vote.
DAOS is designed to address these issues. DAOS is unique because it serves the decision-making needs of small groups. The prerequisite for a third-party project to meet this condition is to have many small groups with common characteristics that need to decide their internal matters without external interference. Currently, there are not many parallel chain teams with these characteristics, but as their business functions continue to grow, we believe they will divide the on-chain users into many small groups for various business reasons. At that point, DAOS will be very helpful to them.
As the development of Ink continues to improve, frameworks like DAOS, which do not depend on external pallets but have their own comprehensive functions, should exist in the form of smart contracts. Or, in other words, this kind of option should be provided to community developers. Regardless of development and deployment, smart contracts are a convenient and flexible option that can enable more teams to use DAOS, especially those small teams that focus solely on smart contracts. We hope that through this friendly upgrade, more teams will see the benefits of using DAOS.

The existence of DAOS in the form of a pallet may require third-party developers to do more work due to the active development and frequent updates of Substrate. Especially in the early stages when the user base is not yet substantial, developers may be reluctant to add several pallets to their projects, particularly for decentralized teams that may not have sufficient resources. Their primary focus is on developing their business functionality rather than dealing with the decision-making of small groups. DAOS is designed to serve projects with a certain scale of users.

Ink develops daos, which balances these issues very well. Let more teams, whether they are parachain or smart contract teams, be able to use it in the way they like. If it is a parachain team, using the smart contract version of daos can further save development time and also better decouple the code.

[wetalice]

Thanks for the submission, @wetalice. I have two questions:

• Could you elaborate a bit more how daos has been used since the grant was concluded and what made you decide to implement it in ink!?
• Are any other teams using daos than the two you mentioned in the application? There hasn't been much activity on the daos repo since the last milestone almost a year ago, so it gives the impression that there isn't much activity around it.

Great question. Thank you very much for your support and attention to DAOS. Up to now, DAOS has been applied to two projects, both of which share a common characteristic: in numerous small groups, members need to collectively vote on democratic decisions within the organization. For example, decisions on the use and management of ICO funds for each project, as well as personnel changes and fund management within each social room. These decisions, if made using Substrate's democracy and collective, would waste public resources and might allow individuals unrelated to the group to vote.
DAOS is designed to address these issues. DAOS is unique because it serves the decision-making needs of small groups. The prerequisite for a third-party project to meet this condition is to have many small groups with common characteristics that need to decide their internal matters without external interference. Currently, there are not many parallel chain teams with these characteristics, but as their business functions continue to grow, we believe they will divide the on-chain users into many small groups for various business reasons. At that point, DAOS will be very helpful to them.
As the development of Ink continues to improve, frameworks like DAOS, which do not depend on external pallets but have their own comprehensive functions, should exist in the form of smart contracts. Or, in other words, this kind of option should be provided to community developers. Regardless of development and deployment, smart contracts are a convenient and flexible option that can enable more teams to use DAOS, especially those small teams that focus solely on smart contracts. We hope that through this friendly upgrade, more teams will see the benefits of using DAOS.

The existence of DAOS in the form of a pallet may require third-party developers to do more work due to the active development and frequent updates of Substrate. Especially in the early stages when the user base is not yet substantial, developers may be reluctant to add several pallets to their projects, particularly for decentralized teams that may not have sufficient resources. Their primary focus is on developing their business functionality rather than dealing with the decision-making of small groups. DAOS is designed to serve projects with a certain scale of users.

Ink develops daos, which balances these issues very well. Let more teams, whether they are parachain or smart contract teams, be able to use it in the way they like. If it is a parachain team, using the smart contract version of daos can further save development time and also better decouple the code.

Another benefit of daos existing in the form of smart contracts is that no matter whether other project parties' DAOs exist in the form of pallets or smart contracts, they can be managed directly through daos. This couldn't be done before.

[keeganquigley]

Thanks for the application @wetalice I see that you added a third milestone. Could you update the level in the PR to level 2, as well as change the Total Costs to factor in the third milestone? Also, the mandatory deliverables should match the ones in the application template. Others can be moved down below it.

[wetalice]

Thanks for the application @wetalice I see that you added a third milestone. Could you update the level in the PR to level 2, as well as change the Total Costs to factor in the third milestone? Also, the mandatory deliverables should match the ones in the application template. Others can be moved down below it.

Thanks @keeganquigley , I have updated all.

[Noc2]

Thanks for the application. I personally think it would have been better to apply for a new grant rather than updating the old one. Apart from that, I think the project should ultimately be supported by the teams that leverage the technology ( LISTEN and KICO) since it is hard for us to give any valuable feedback at this stage, and the grants program shouldn’t provide continuous funding for projects, because we are not in a position to judge what's valuable and what isn’t. This should be decided by users and investors. Therefore, I’m not going to approve this application, but the rest of the committee might have a different opinion.

[takahser]

@YanOctavian I struggle to effectively evaluate this project's real-world value at this stage. I agree with the point that the primary beneficiaries, i.e. teams already utilizing DAOSare are in a better position to fund continued development where it makes sense to them. I think longer-term sustainability and improvements should be driven by partners with actual adoption and skin in the game rather than the grants program. Therefore, I'm not going to approve it, either.
Since none of the W3F Grant Committee members have spoken out in favor of this proposal so far, I think it's fair to close it. Nevertheless, I wish you good luck for the future of your project and hope that you'll succeed in finding funding as well as in your mission to improve DAO Tooling.

[wetalice]

Thanks for the application. I personally think it would have been better to apply for a new grant rather than updating the old one. Apart from that, I think the project should ultimately be supported by the teams that leverage the technology ( LISTEN and KICO) since it is hard for us to give any valuable feedback at this stage, and the grants program shouldn’t provide continuous funding for projects, because we are not in a position to judge what's valuable and what isn’t. This should be decided by users and investors. Therefore, I’m not going to approve this application, but the rest of the committee might have a different opinion.

Thank you @Noc2! We are indeed sorry when the listen and kico teams no longer continue to maintain their own parachain projects. It may also be due to the sluggish market. We also have no right to let them continue to do that. The cost of parachains is huge, and they must have suffered certain losses. But daos has always been an independent project from their parachains. We have never received funding from them since the beginning of development, which is also not allowed by you. We just hope to be able to use ink to implement another version of daos, because daos is an excellent template for developing DAOs and should not be denied because of who it served in the past. This is a development tool that needs to be recommended by the community before it can be widely used. It also requires our daos team to develop a more friendly version. In fact, if you use ink for development, the cost of use will be greatly reduced and it will be more popular. Opportunities for widespread use. For the development of daos, we are happy to accept your suggestion and re-apply for a new grant as an independent project. But for the old pallet development version, if a new parachain project discovers and uses it, we will be very happy and update it as soon as possible.

[wetalice]

@YanOctavian I struggle to effectively evaluate this project's real-world value at this stage. I agree with the point that the primary beneficiaries, i.e. teams already utilizing DAOSare are in a better position to fund continued development where it makes sense to them. I think longer-term sustainability and improvements should be driven by partners with actual adoption and skin in the game rather than the grants program. Therefore, I'm not going to approve it, either. Since none of the W3F Grant Committee members have spoken out in favor of this proposal so far, I think it's fair to close it. Nevertheless, I wish you good luck for the future of your project and hope that you'll succeed in finding funding as well as in your mission to improve DAO Tooling.

Thanks for your reply @takahser , I agree with you. But I think daos should be implemented by ink and exist as a DAO development template for the community, so that it can be used by teams in need later. In fact, daos was not originally developed because of the needs of the listen and kico projects, but they felt that the design of daos was in line with their own business and adopted it. However, we did not receive funding from them, and now they have stopped maintaining their parallel chain, but it does not mean that daos has lost its value. I very much hope that the Polkadot community can continue to support the development of its ink version. If it is better to apply as a new project, then we are happy to do so. Looking forward to your reply and further suggestions

[keeganquigley]

Thanks for the application @wetalice and I agree with the others that though we agreed to bootstrap the initial phase, I think this could be funded by the community now, especially since it is dealing with DAO creation which ideally would have a community in the first place, who might be willing to fund raise. At this point I would encourage you to look for funding through the treasury or possibly VCs.

[YanOctavian]

@YanOctavian I struggle to effectively evaluate this project's real-world value at this stage. I agree with the point that the primary beneficiaries, i.e. teams already utilizing DAOSare are in a better position to fund continued development where it makes sense to them. I think longer-term sustainability and improvements should be driven by partners with actual adoption and skin in the game rather than the grants program. Therefore, I'm not going to approve it, either. Since none of the W3F Grant Committee members have spoken out in favor of this proposal so far, I think it's fair to close it. Nevertheless, I wish you good luck for the future of your project and hope that you'll succeed in finding funding as well as in your mission to improve DAO Tooling.

@takahser @Noc2 I am very happy to participate in such an interesting discussion. I have been following this project since the beginning. I agree with his @wetalice point of view. This is a special situation because both kico and listen parachains have stopped maintaining parachains due to their own reasons. This does not negate the daos project, because it is independent, and the ink version can be completely independent as a new project. This is a tool that should be used by more people. As a developer, I am also willing to have more people develop tools for me to use. In fact, we are also preparing to do such a thing for the Polkadot community. Our new project(network) requires such a tool, but we have not yet open sourced it, so it is not convenient to disclose it here. The ink version of daos is a good choice. Because you can't use modules like substrate's collective and democracy in a group discussion, they are too inefficient.

[YanOctavian]

@YanOctavian I struggle to effectively evaluate this project's real-world value at this stage. I agree with the point that the primary beneficiaries, i.e. teams already utilizing DAOSare are in a better position to fund continued development where it makes sense to them. I think longer-term sustainability and improvements should be driven by partners with actual adoption and skin in the game rather than the grants program. Therefore, I'm not going to approve it, either. Since none of the W3F Grant Committee members have spoken out in favor of this proposal so far, I think it's fair to close it. Nevertheless, I wish you good luck for the future of your project and hope that you'll succeed in finding funding as well as in your mission to improve DAO Tooling.

@takahser @Noc2 I am very happy to participate in such an interesting discussion. I have been following this project since the beginning. I agree with his @wetalice point of view. This is a special situation because both kico and listen parachains have stopped maintaining parachains due to their own reasons. This does not negate the daos project, because it is independent, and the ink version can be completely independent as a new project. This is a tool that should be used by more people. As a developer, I am also willing to have more people develop tools for me to use. In fact, we are also preparing to do such a thing for the Polkadot community. Our new project(network) requires such a tool, but we have not yet open sourced it, so it is not convenient to disclose it here. The ink version of daos is a good choice. Because you can't use modules like substrate's collective and democracy in a group discussion, they are too inefficient.

As a developer, I don't like using daos in a pallet way because it is too difficult to maintain for me, so for me the ink version of daos should be treated as a brand new project. Its usage has shifted from parachain to smart contract. As an open source project that has been funded, such as xtokens, I will use it, but as a developer I will not directly fund it. I believe daos is encountering the same problem now, especially when developing completely different versions. This is a completely different usage scenario and should be treated as a new project.

[wetalice]

@YanOctavian I struggle to effectively evaluate this project's real-world value at this stage. I agree with the point that the primary beneficiaries, i.e. teams already utilizing DAOSare are in a better position to fund continued development where it makes sense to them. I think longer-term sustainability and improvements should be driven by partners with actual adoption and skin in the game rather than the grants program. Therefore, I'm not going to approve it, either. Since none of the W3F Grant Committee members have spoken out in favor of this proposal so far, I think it's fair to close it. Nevertheless, I wish you good luck for the future of your project and hope that you'll succeed in finding funding as well as in your mission to improve DAO Tooling.

@takahser @Noc2 I am very happy to participate in such an interesting discussion. I have been following this project since the beginning. I agree with his @wetalice point of view. This is a special situation because both kico and listen parachains have stopped maintaining parachains due to their own reasons. This does not negate the daos project, because it is independent, and the ink version can be completely independent as a new project. This is a tool that should be used by more people. As a developer, I am also willing to have more people develop tools for me to use. In fact, we are also preparing to do such a thing for the Polkadot community. Our new project(network) requires such a tool, but we have not yet open sourced it, so it is not convenient to disclose it here. The ink version of daos is a good choice. Because you can't use modules like substrate's collective and democracy in a group discussion, they are too inefficient.

As a developer, I don't like using daos in a pallet way because it is too difficult to maintain for me, so for me the ink version of daos should be treated as a brand new project. Its usage has shifted from parachain to smart contract. As an open source project that has been funded, such as xtokens, I will use it, but as a developer I will not directly fund it. I believe daos is encountering the same problem now, especially when developing completely different versions. This is a completely different usage scenario and should be treated as a new project.

Thank you @YanOctavian!

[YanOctavian]

@YanOctavian I struggle to effectively evaluate this project's real-world value at this stage. I agree with the point that the primary beneficiaries, i.e. teams already utilizing DAOSare are in a better position to fund continued development where it makes sense to them. I think longer-term sustainability and improvements should be driven by partners with actual adoption and skin in the game rather than the grants program. Therefore, I'm not going to approve it, either. Since none of the W3F Grant Committee members have spoken out in favor of this proposal so far, I think it's fair to close it. Nevertheless, I wish you good luck for the future of your project and hope that you'll succeed in finding funding as well as in your mission to improve DAO Tooling.

@takahser @Noc2 I am very happy to participate in such an interesting discussion. I have been following this project since the beginning. I agree with his @wetalice point of view. This is a special situation because both kico and listen parachains have stopped maintaining parachains due to their own reasons. This does not negate the daos project, because it is independent, and the ink version can be completely independent as a new project. This is a tool that should be used by more people. As a developer, I am also willing to have more people develop tools for me to use. In fact, we are also preparing to do such a thing for the Polkadot community. Our new project(network) requires such a tool, but we have not yet open sourced it, so it is not convenient to disclose it here. The ink version of daos is a good choice. Because you can't use modules like substrate's collective and democracy in a group discussion, they are too inefficient.

As a developer, I don't like using daos in a pallet way because it is too difficult to maintain for me, so for me the ink version of daos should be treated as a brand new project. Its usage has shifted from parachain to smart contract. As an open source project that has been funded, such as xtokens, I will use it, but as a developer I will not directly fund it. I believe daos is encountering the same problem now, especially when developing completely different versions. This is a completely different usage scenario and should be treated as a new project.

Thank you @YanOctavian!

You're welcome. Good luck!