RDS 2.0 #32

ghost · 2016-10-16T08:20:37Z

Soon, the new version of RDS standard will start to be integrated. It's backwards-compatible, but adds additional subcarriers to increase data throughput. It will have many new features: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Data_System#RDS_2.0.

Will you implement it when the specifications are released?

windytan · 2016-10-16T08:39:55Z

As soon as I get example data!

windytan · 2017-05-13T06:03:29Z

Will reopen when at least one station transmitting RDS 2.0 can be received.

andimik · 2017-06-29T21:04:24Z

Seems German public broadcaster NDR is testing RDS2.0, see http://radioforum.foren.mysnip.de/read.php?8773,1427903

I've asked the user to get in contact with you.

andimik · 2022-05-07T20:49:21Z

There is now one station in Italy using RDS2.0, see https://www.rundfunkforum.de/viewtopic.php?p=1655588#p1655588 (incl. mpx recording).

The 66.5 kHz carrier transmits the station logo (says the encoder manufacturer)

The normal RDS is

$ redsea -r 192000 -f 53c5_rds2.wav 
{"di":{"artificial_head":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"compressed":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"dynamic_pty":true},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"group":"2A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"group":"2A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"group":"14A","other_network":{"pi":"0x53C5","tp":true},"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"group":"3A","open_data_app":{"app_name":"RadioText+ (RT+)","oda_group":"12A"},"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"country":"it","group":"1A","has_linkage":false,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"di":{"stereo":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"artificial_head":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"compressed":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"dynamic_pty":true},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ps":"GIOCONDA","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"group":"2A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"group":"2A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"debug":["TODO 10A"],"group":"10A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"di":{"stereo":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"artificial_head":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"clock_time":"2022-05-06T18:10:00Z","group":"4A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"clock_time":"2022-05-05T18:10:00-01:00","group":"4A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"di":{"compressed":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"dynamic_pty":true},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ps":"GIOCONDA","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"group":"2A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"group":"2A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"di":{"stereo":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"artificial_head":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"compressed":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"dynamic_pty":true},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ps":"GIOCONDA","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"group":"2A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"group":"12A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","radiotext_plus":{"item_running":true,"item_toggle":0},"tp":true}
{"group":"2A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"di":{"stereo":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"artificial_head":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"compressed":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"di":{"dynamic_pty":true},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ps":"GIOCONDA","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"group":"2A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"group":"2A","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"group":"14A","other_network":{"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true},"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"group":"1A","has_linkage":false,"language":"Unknown","pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"di":{"stereo":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}
{"group":"3A","open_data_app":{"app_name":"RadioText+ (RT+)","oda_group":"12A"},"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","tp":true}
{"di":{"artificial_head":false},"group":"0A","is_music":true,"pi":"0x53C5","prog_type":"Pop music","ta":false,"tp":true}

andimik · 2022-05-08T20:06:56Z

https://www.rundfunkforum.de/download/file.php?id=10485&mode=view

This is the spectrum and a first try with Rdsspy and its new RDS2 extension.

andimik · 2023-08-29T08:28:10Z

I hope I can record an MPX when I will be on the Adriatic sea in September.

andimik · 2023-09-16T08:10:30Z

This is an (error-free) MPX recording of that station recorded near Udine (UD), Italy on 98.5 MHz from Transmitter Porzus.

Seems one cycle is around 1 min, so I've cut my initially 10 min recording to 4 min.

Please note the timestamp is not the original recording time.

gioconda_20230915_udine_192khz_mono_4min.txt

https://we.tl/t-njT2T4kkGp

I found out that the broadcaster is using this kind of RDS encoder: https://pira.cz/rds/p164man.pdf

The author of many RDS hardware and also RDSSpy (Jan) wrote to me,

the RDS2 is dead, there's no support at all in the receivers, moreover
the station logo has been unexpectedly removed from final standard.

That Italian station uses some of the PIRA RDS encoder, they're sending
logo on the additional carrier but this has no effect at all. That
function has been implemented for potential future use but now I'm
almost sure that there's no future related to this.

Althought in this document from 2016, the RDS Forum still wrote about Logo implementation up to a size of 12 kB.

https://www.rds.org.uk/2010/pdf/R16_055_1.pdf

And in one of the latest publications on https://www.rds.org.uk/2010/pdf/Position%20paper%2023_01%20RDS2%20-%20Frequently%20Asked%20Questions.pdf the RDS Forum are still mentioning it.

There is a preview of the (very expensive) PDF: https://www.techstreet.com/products/preview/2566513

Annex E (page 33) seems to describe it anyway.

windytan · 2023-09-16T19:28:36Z

Awesome research!

It's sad that RDS2 never took off. It would be nice to implement in redsea anyway, possibly, if someone ever wants to take a look at these rare data streams.

I'm just wondering how the output would look like. Pictures aren't very suitable for JSON printout. Maybe the user could give a special command-line switch to enable RDS2, and then another switch to point to a directory where to save these files?

sm3ulc · 2023-09-16T19:55:28Z

Hi! The pics will be very small so probably not much problem in having them and other binary stuff encoded in BASE64. RDS2 har great potential but was sadly much too late to the market. Kind regards // David

…

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:28 PM Oona Räisänen ***@***.***> wrote: Awesome research! It's sad that RDS2 never took off. It would be nice to implement in redsea anyway, possibly, if someone ever wants to take a look at these rare data streams. I'm just wondering how the output would look like. Pictures aren't very suitable for JSON printout. Maybe the user could give a special command-line switch to enable RDS2, and then another switch to point to a directory where to save these files? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#32 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AELU6KLKHEAL6CAIBHSJCG3X2X4XBANCNFSM4CS7VSAQ> . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: ***@***.***>

andimik · 2023-09-16T20:10:04Z

This is the picture, 8.45 kB.

53C5_-_2024-05-18_13-30-05.zip

veso266 · 2023-09-16T23:02:04Z

Why couldn't RDS2 take off

The only encoder that I know supports is is Jans Pira, maybe we should start loobying with Hans to add it into his Stereo Tool

as for a decoder, even RDSSpy doesn't seam to support it (at least the public free version doesn't or maybe I am missing something, please correct me if I am), I saw a video once, but thats it, I never found its RDS2 plugin

as for receivers, well if almost no station is using it, no wonder no receiver will support it

This needs to be somehow changed (I don't know how, but I would realy loved for RDS2 to take off), RDS2 is way better then DAB, it gives FM new life, it adds extra goodies that enhance the expirience (I know a lot of people will disagree with me and I will loose what I love anyway, but why can't audio be transmitted to out ears in analog way.... whyy)

I mean if people adopted DAB+ why cannot RDS2 have the same future?

If anyone wants the standard, I have it and can send it to anyone that asks for it

andimik · 2023-09-17T05:01:26Z

Please note that some countries will need the extended features of RDS2 (character sets, new lower frequency).

Yes, you are missing the files.dll in Rdsspy. Please copy it from Magic RDS folder.

But due to lack of time I was focusing in recording the file, so I can't tell you if Rdsspy can decode it live or just with wave files.

sm3ulc · 2023-09-17T10:08:47Z

Hi! Maybe I can provide some enlightenment about the development of RDS2 and the slow takeup reasons. I was involved in RDS-Forum from 2014 to 2022 and kept track of possibilities for the Swedish Radio. The majority of receivers are placed in cars. In Sweden a car has an average lifetime of about 17 years which makes adaptationrate very slow. The national radio in Sweden are also already using the upper part of some of the channels with DARC (https://www.windytan.com/2013/11/broadcast-messages-on-darc-side.html). The standardisation process was also very slow in a landscape where many stations are contemplating the choice of to go for DAB only/mixed/not at all. The _only_ big player I've seen made any effort to actually have done something with RDS2 is Radio France. They had a working concept running in 2016 and continued (ex https://www.radioworld.com/global/radio-france-displays-rds2-file-transfer). There's also a lack of open reference implementation of the standard that probably could have helped the process forward. One basic implementation of the extended carriers: https://github.com/Anthony96922/MiniRDS Kind regards, // David

…

On Sun, Sep 17, 2023 at 1:02 AM veso266 ***@***.***> wrote: Why couldn't RDS2 take off The only encoder that I know supports is is Jans Pira, maybe we should start loobying with Hans to add it into his Stereo Tool as for a decoder, even RDSSpy doesn't seam to support it (at least the public free version doesn't), I saw a video once, but thats it as for receivers, well if almost no station is using it, no wonder no receiver will support it This needs to be somehow changed (I don't know how, but I would realy loved for RDS2 to take off), RDS2 is way better then DAB, it gives FM new life, it adds extra goodies that enhance the expirience (I know a lot of people will disagree with me and I will loose what I love anyway, but why can't audio be transmitted to out ears in analog way.... whyy) I mean if people adopted DAB+ why cannot RDS2 have the same future? If anyone wants the standard, I have it and can send it to anyone that asks for it — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#32 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AELU6KKQETFANQXRFN2SZCLX2YVXPANCNFSM4CS7VSAQ> . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: ***@***.***>

veso266 · 2023-09-17T11:27:26Z

@andimik I copied files.dll and curl.exe from Magic RDS to RDS Spy (latest 1.08 version), although RDS Spy can see the plugin when I click on it nothing happens

I also tried to run rds spy which is built in Magic RDS and same thing (maybe I should run it from Magic RDS menu itself or something

I also tried playing the file direcly in rds spy, but same thing

Your sample does play fine (playing it with VLC, rds1 gets decoded like usual)

RDS Spy has an option called Enable RDS2 tunneling but I am not sure what that does (tunnel the 67khz stream somewhere, but where and how to acsess it)

andimik · 2024-02-20T08:40:58Z

@windytan

Oona, it seems that Finnish station
Järviradio uses additional carriers, but it is not sure, if this is RDS2.

https://www.rundfunkforum.de/viewtopic.php?p=1749186#p1749186

It's at least in Haapavesi on 89.7 MHz.

I guess you live in or near Helsinki, the station can be found on 103.1 MHz there.

windytan · 2024-02-20T20:38:53Z

Thanks for the heads-up. Here the station doesn't seem to have additional subcarriers unfortunately.

Since this is still at an idea phase, and it would be kind of complicated at this point in the development to support RDS2, I've made a brainstorming discussion thread.

andimik · 2024-05-18T11:04:51Z

There are other stations, but in Australia.

49B1_-_2024-05-18_12-56-44.zip

windytan · 2024-07-31T07:55:03Z

Acceptance criteria for PR (see discussion):

User can enable RDS2 feature with --rds2
If enabled,
- redsea looks for additional subcarriers
- some RDS2 subcarrier metadata (chosen by developer's judgement) is displayed as JSON
- hex output should be kept RDS Spy compatible
Developer should design how this JSON info is tied to existing RDS1 JSON groups (if at all), based on the RDS2 documentation
Resampling funcionality shoud be moved outside the Subcarrier class (for performance reasons)
There's a basic test that runs in CI
Build shows green

Edit: test/mpx.cc can be used as a skeleton for the tests. I wrote some PR guidelines, hopefully to make it easier to make a PR.

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RDS 2.0 #32

RDS 2.0 #32

ghost commented Oct 16, 2016

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RDS 2.0 #32

RDS 2.0 #32

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