diff --git a/ovos_workshop/skill_launcher.py b/ovos_workshop/skill_launcher.py
index 726871a4..7da40e78 100644
--- a/ovos_workshop/skill_launcher.py
+++ b/ovos_workshop/skill_launcher.py
@@ -409,30 +409,29 @@ def _create_skill_instance(self, skill_module=None):
         """
         skill_module = skill_module or self.skill_module
         try:
-            skill_creator = get_create_skill_function(skill_module) or \
-                            self.skill_class
-
-            # create the skill
-            # if the signature supports skill_id and bus pass them
-            # to fully initialize the skill in 1 go
+            # in skill classes __new__ should fully create the skill object
             try:
-                # many skills do not expose this, if they don't allow bus/skill_id kwargs
-                # in __init__ we need to manually call _startup
-                self.instance = skill_creator(bus=self.bus,
-                                              skill_id=self.skill_id)
-                # skills will have bus and skill_id available as soon as they call super()
-            except:
-                self.instance = skill_creator()
-
-            if hasattr(self.instance, "is_fully_initialized"):
-                LOG.warning(f"Deprecated skill signature! Skill class should be"
-                            f" imported from `ovos_workshop.skills`")
-                is_initialized = self.instance.is_fully_initialized
-            else:
-                is_initialized = self.instance._is_fully_initialized
-            if not is_initialized:
-                # finish initialization of skill class
+                skill_class = get_skill_class(skill_module)
+                self.instance = skill_class(bus=self.bus, skill_id=self.skill_id)
+            except:  # guess it wasnt subclassing from ovos_workshop (fail here ?)
+
+                # attempt to use old style create_skill function entrypoint
+                skill_creator = get_create_skill_function(skill_module) or self.skill_class
+
+                # if the signature supports skill_id and bus pass them to fully initialize the skill in 1 go
+                try:
+                    # skills that do will have bus and skill_id available as soon as they call super()
+                    self.instance = skill_creator(bus=self.bus,
+                                                  skill_id=self.skill_id)
+                except:
+                    # most old skills do not expose bus/skill_id kwargs
+                    self.instance = skill_creator()
+
+            # finish initialization of skill if we didn't manage to inject skill_id and bus kwargs
+            # these skills only have skill_id and bus available in initialize, not in __init__
+            if not self.instance._is_fully_initialized:
                 self.instance._startup(self.bus, self.skill_id)
+
         except Exception as e:
             LOG.exception(f'Skill __init__ failed with {e}')
             self.instance = None
diff --git a/ovos_workshop/skills/base.py b/ovos_workshop/skills/base.py
index c942acad..5d5c3909 100644
--- a/ovos_workshop/skills/base.py
+++ b/ovos_workshop/skills/base.py
@@ -170,11 +170,44 @@ class BaseSkill:
     """Base class for mycroft skills providing common behaviour and parameters
     to all Skill implementations. This base class does not require `mycroft` to be importable
 
-    Args:
-        name (str): skill name
+    skill_launcher.py used to be skill_loader-py in mycroft-core
+
+    for launching skills one can use skill_launcher.py to run them standalone (eg, docker),
+    but the main objective is to make skills work more like proper python objects and allow usage of the class directly
+
+    the considerations are:
+
+    - most skills in the wild dont expose kwargs, so dont accept skill_id or bus
+    - most skills expect a loader class to set up the bus and skill_id after object creation
+    - skills can not do pythonic things in init, instead of doing things after super() devs are expected to use initialize() which is a mycroft invention and non-standard
+    - main concern is that anything depending on self.skill_id being set can not be used in init method (eg. self.settings and self.file_system)
+    - __new__ uncouples the skill init from a helper class, making skills work like regular python objects
+    - the magic in `__new__` is just so we dont break everything in the wild, since we cant start requiring skill_id and bus args
+
+    KwArgs:
+        name (str): skill name - DEPRECATED
+        skill_id (str): unique skill identifier
         bus (MycroftWebsocketClient): Optional bus connection
     """
 
+    def __new__(cls, *args, **kwargs):
+        if "skill_id" in kwargs and "bus" in kwargs:
+            skill_id = kwargs["skill_id"]
+            bus = kwargs["bus"]
+            try:
+                # skill follows latest best practices, accepts kwargs and does its own init
+                return super().__new__(cls, skill_id=skill_id, bus=bus)
+            except:
+                # skill did not update its init method, let's do some magic to init it manually
+                skill = super().__new__(cls, *args, **kwargs)
+                skill._startup(bus, skill_id)
+                return skill
+
+        # skill loader was not used to create skill object, we are missing the kwargs
+        # skill wont be fully inited, please move logic to initialize
+        LOG.warning(f"{cls.__name__} not fully inited, self.bus and self.skill_id will only be available in self.initialize")
+        return super().__new__(cls)
+
     def __init__(self, name=None, bus=None, resources_dir=None,
                  settings: JsonStorage = None,
                  gui=None, enable_settings_manager=True,